Hm...

[vixenesque93]

The Sting of Poverty.

From the article: In the community of people dedicated to analyzing poverty, one of the sharpest debates is over why some poor people act in ways that ensure their continued indigence. Compared with the middle class or the wealthy, the poor are disproportionately likely to drop out of school, to have children while in their teens, to abuse drugs, to commit crimes, to not save when extra money comes their way, to not work.

To an economist, this is irrational behavior. It might make sense for a wealthy person to quit his job, or to eschew education or develop a costly drug habit. But a poor person, having little money, would seem to have the strongest incentive to subscribe to the Puritan work ethic, since each dollar earned would be worth more to him than to someone higher on the income scale.



Interesting.

Thoughts?

Comments

[glitch25.livejournal.com]

The interesting part is that his theories apply to so much more than economics. Now I wanna read the book. :-D

[vodkatwist.livejournal.com]

I do. I mean I was raised po and admire and want to belong to the Bourgeoisie... the very thought of owning a home in this market? well... give me a couple months the markets shit but.. where was I - Oh yes- I want a wife and kids and all that too I think. I keep saying that anyway. Tell me it's not just a pickup line because if you don't I'll feel cheap and used. She took my virginity that hussey. Never mind, the Vodka's good.

The other day I saw a sign- on the road- a billboard - all white- naked- it was less surreal than symbolist. I thought- 'How Beautiful!' There were thoughts of - if only every sign were like this- but that itself was less delightful and more totalitarian. If any rule an artist lays down were to happen- would that also be less beautiful and more frightening?

The artist is in a sense dictator.

He has his vision of Utopia And usually doesn't mind sharing. Don't get me wrong Utopic vision in itself has fueled western Civ - and God Bless the Artists for overall remaining paper hangers.

My point- and I do have one - is that pointy shoes are currently in fashion- which just goes to show. thank you ladies and gentlemen.

[vodkatwist.livejournal.com]

Good luck with the performace revies which happened..... nearly 13 hours ago.

[tzaddi-93.livejournal.com]

Economically, it makes no sense. Psychologically, it makes perfect sense. If you are surrounded by desperation and poverty and extreme lack of opportunity all the time, it's very easy to just give up.

[00goddess.livejournal.com]

Bingo! Poverty is demoralizing and can lead to learned helplessness.

[fearless-son.livejournal.com]

I have always wondered about this myself. It is at the core of the debate between poverty being systemic (the poor are never given a chance to gain material wealth) and poverty being cultural (the poor are so because they have no interest in gaining material wealth.) This is also what goes into arguments about school funding. Those who favor systemic explanations believe that if things like education for the poor had more funding and force, the poverty would be reduced. Those who favor a cultural explanation say that throwing more money at the issue will not solve the problem and point at things like the poor dropping out regardless of funding.

Personally, I think that the problem lies somewhere in the middle ground of these. There are both systemic aspects and cultural ones. It is a system where gaining material wealth is difficult when starting from a position of disadvantage, which in turn fosters a culture of "can't win, don't try." Both concerns need to be simultaneously addressed to alleviate the problem.

Have you heard of Unitus? It is a non-profit organization formed by a former Microsoft executive. While it aims to reduce poverty, it is not a charity. Rather, what it does is give poor people credit, something the established institutions are unwilling to do. Such loans are typically small, ranging from fifty to five-hundred dollars, but even that amount used properly can give those in poverty a tremendous opportunity. In order to ensure that the debt is repaid, the organization is very selective about who they give loans to, and often requires them to addend financial management workshops and demonstrate financial responsibility before a loan will be given. Apparently they have a better than 90% repayment rate, which allows destitute families to build their assets. One thing that I like about this system is that it addresses both systemic and cultural sides of the issue. It gives the opportunities denied by the system, but it also builds up the economy around those who benefit from it. Those in poverty who benefit from it tend to refer others to it as well, and it continues to expand, funding itself with interest and bolstering its available lending money with donations to become a self-perpetuating solution.

Sorry, that got a bit tangental.

Well,

[matertiamat.livejournal.com]

This is a really complicated question. One of the features of poverty is pressure and pain. Even if you don't have to cope with addiction or violence in the family (and chances are you will) you have to cope with instability. It's much harder for someone in the average poor household to get through school, for instance. High school can be hard for anyone - but try to study in a crowded environment, with conflicting schedules and not enough food. Add an eviction, or just the utilities being turned off. Then factor in the lack of seeing better - we model ourselves after those we know. And the things our parents teach us (or don't) about how to deal with society and day to day life - you get taught those if your parents know them, and not if they don't.

People who don't grow up this way don't understand it - they have no concept of how hard life is without the buffer of a few spare dollars. As the child of a single mother, and someone who did drop out of school with a drug habit, I know it can be gotten past. But I also deeply understand why people don't, and why they have trouble even figuring out how to try.

Re: Well,

[layo.livejournal.com]

Well said: you hit the nail on the head. Add to that parents who may not want you to be something they are not, as well as later relationships with people from your background who may compound your own problems and drag you down, and it's tough. I was surprised that I never got over it enough to finish college. I almost dropped out of high school because I left home at the beginning of senior year to get away from my aunt, but the school I switched to had a wealthy tax base and the teachers actually cared about me. Imagine that!

High stress and a sense of lack of control in one's general life does make it more difficult to think about long-term goals. If you always feel unsafe you end up in a mode where you are radically detached and live as though there is no future.

[luna-piena.livejournal.com]

It may just be my mood right now, but this is sickening.

[fearless-son.livejournal.com]

The poverty or the analysis?

[clayshaper.livejournal.com]

Consider the sources:

People who spend their lives "analyzing poverty" have specific values, thoughts, and most specifically educational viewpoints.

Groups of people prone to perpetual poverty have very different viewpoints, in large part due to very different backgrounds and educational input.

[ihateswine.livejournal.com]

surely written by someone who never had to eat shit from the food shelf

[vixenesque93.livejournal.com]

I do agree with the multi-faceted part of that.

There's no one, sole reason that people are poor-the circumstances vary so the solutions need to be just as varied.

[lizzardkitty.livejournal.com]

I agree with the multifaceted ness of the above. Different people have different cultural values, and those analyzing them have others. Also, I think there are other social aspects to consider, such as the lowest quartile of the population having some of the highest rates of sexual assault (things of this nature are passed from generation to generation, are less likely to be caught in poorer populations, as well as not being as likely to be treated - therapy, etc.) and this can lead to early pregnancies (from spin off risky behavior) which is just one small facet of the sociology - along with educational opportunities, available job opportunities and all sorts of things. Poverty can be overcome, but there are a lot of factors involving the culture/sociology of class level.

[cynew.livejournal.com]

I think the people analyzing poverty are using all analytical thinking and no intuitive thinking. Yes, it is a poor economic strategy to get pregnant in high school (or younger). However if your father is not around and your mother couldn't care less what you do and the only person who seems to give a damn about you is this guy who wants to have sex with you and doesn't like condoms and if you loved him...

There are a million scenarios like this where there is a clear "good choice" if the only thing you have to worry about is getting out of poverty. However survival (emotional, physical, and spiritual) and getting out of poverty are often at odds with each other.

You can't understand poverty by looking at it rationally from the outside. You have to live it. My $0.02

[fearless-son.livejournal.com]

I think part of the problem people have with me is that I use analytical thinking because I am largely incapable of using intuitive thinking. The situation that you described to me still does not make sense to me when thought out, even taking emotions into account. Risking a pregnancy unprepared, emotionally and financially, will only give rise to a child who will likely be in the same situation as you when they get to the same age, with an absent father and a mother who is too tired to give a damn anymore. If they are suffering emotionally because of that situation, do they want to wish the same situation on their hypothetical children as well?

I do not mean to condemn, but as I said, I am incapable of seeing things in an intuitive context.

[tzaddi-93.livejournal.com]

That's also assuming that the people in question have access to accurate information about how to prevent pregnancy. Given the recent emphasis on abstinence-only education, that is a big assumption.

That being said...most teenagers make decisions based on their emotions. At that age, they are severely lacking in the ability to accurately predict the long-term consequences of their actions. Lots of teenagers are also severely lacking in adult guidance, and that gets worse the further down the economic scale you go. So many people have this image of poor people doing nothing. Some of the poorest people in the country are busting their asses to a level most people cannot possibly imagine--and they are still barely surviving. People who routinely have to work 12-hour days at a couple of part-time minimum wage jobs and commute on the bus to wherever they can afford to live are not going to be around to advise their kids on birth control or to prevent them from having sex or to talk to them about how to really know you are ready to have sex. When they are around, they are dog tired. People like that can't simply choose to take a day off work to spend time with their kids.

[fearless-son.livejournal.com]

I think a lot of sexual education teachers, the ones who got into the profession in the first place because they wanted to teach will say "fuck that" to abstinence-only education and teach other things anyway.

I can only use my own experience as a frame of reference. While true I acted on my emotions as a teenager, those emotions were mostly cynical and hateful. I hated the imperfect world and anyone who brought people into it was inconsiderate.

[cynew.livejournal.com]

That is the thing though. I (and maybe you too) can look at the current path my life is taking, think about how hard I want to work, and then predict with reasonable certainty what my life will look like in 5 years, 10 years, and so on. Someone living in poverty may not know where they will be living next month. The girl in my scenario may be worried about having to move, live in a shelter or car, have her mother give up on her altogether and become a ward of the state in which case she will probably have to switch schools, lose any friends/boyfriend. All this means that whether she is dooming a hypothetical child to repeat her cycle of poverty is way off her radar because she is too busy dealing with the here and now. Does that help?

[fearless-son.livejournal.com]

I can understand the focus on the here and now, but that would seem to make it even less likely to risk having children. After all, if you do not know what your situation will be next month, let alone for the next few decades, would you even contemplate being saddled with a responsibility that you will be stuck with for that long?

[cynew.livejournal.com]

But she isn't thinking like that. I guess I cannot explain it well. She is not making a plan either to get pregnant or to not get pregnant. She is reacting to her situation in the way that feels right which means holding on to the person who seems to care. I think it is a different mindset. I dunno.

[tzaddi-93.livejournal.com]

I have found that any statement that begins with the phrase, "Can't you/they just..." is a sure sign that the speaker has absolutely no clue what it takes to accomplish the action they are describing.

[vodkatwist.livejournal.com]

At once valid and Variable and thank you for posting this.

Coming from a bar since I was only 4 hours younger I can tell you that it indeed takes a village to raise a lemur.

Otherwise all that virtue of selfishness stuff I fought against so valiantly instead of being in grad school works.

That is why I'm a Democrat. look at the fiscal results from any two term Democrat in the oval office compared to his red brother raking in a meager trillion here or gazillion here in deeper debt and international ill will.

We're not a nation of sheep or shareholders, we're simply a rough but principled people of ideals. Leave to lines and whatnot to our European brothers- they both build and destroy ques with urgent fanaticism.

Let us instead rejoice in the delightful fact that we are and shall remain a disparate people relatively free of social construct.

Too much time spent driving at midnight in the Olympic Forest? Who the fuck knows. I'm happy and my soul breathes that much cleaner from the night.

[vodkatwist.livejournal.com]

Honestly too= it's a question of standard of living vs population.

India- what are the social programs? still many rise- many sink

Mexico

population man

not to get to brutal but compare this with sweden or Denmark or even Holland.

Social structures work best when more people buy into them.

If no one does whats the point aside from theory.

Having a Government one can trust is paramount- I almost admire the current administration for this- wanna do away with government? make government something one cannot trust- and prove it.

The truth is as much as we posture a fraction of those who threaten to move at the end of an election do- most- myself included- put up with it.

I'm waking up an integral part of myself- the one who actually lives. The ones who dream and speak and float have had their turn and they exist believe me. I find more mental health in having to make it than suckling dreamward. Delicious as it is... and this isn't easy I'm ever minful of dings and stings. Waking up to it is sobering- and replaces attitude more than another drink. which I've had pleanty of tonight thank you for offering.

sleppes

[vodkatwist.livejournal.com]

in a fucking nutshell- lassaiz faire = mexico
socialism = Sweden

now fuck off and let me enjoy my porn in peace

[quetz.livejournal.com]

Yes, but economists are the educated and therefore wealthy, and do not have to deal with how soul-crushing poverty can be.

[quetz.livejournal.com]

Ah, others have said the same, and better than I could.

Still, I have issues with the pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps puritan-work-ethic ideal of the USA. Not everyone has the force of will necessary to do so and those left behind deserve more compassion than scorn.